AWID: What is the likelihood of Jacob Zuma becoming President?

Dawn O’Reilly: I can only express my opinion and share what some women are saying. Jacob Zuma may stand more than a good chance of becoming President. He has very powerful people behind him. He has therefore emerged from every milestone unscathed in terms of his rising to the top. He has powerful backers and allies as well as powerful political machinery. He has been able to pay for top legal brains. He also has, to his advantage, a significant level of disillusionment in the country with the current presidency and the sense that many have of his commitment to shifting the direction of the government to the left [though some of us ask: which left?] is a powerful factor here.

However, we do hope - and must work to push that maybe this time justice will prevail and we will not have to live in the impossible citizenship that such a situation would throw us into as feminists and others working for justice and indeed the whole of our society.

AWID: Could you comment on his infamous remarks about minimizing the possibility of HIV transmission by taking a shower after having sex with the woman who later said he had raped her?

DO: So much has been said about this. It is both sad and shocking. Over and above the things that have already been said about this, I have something to say as an HIV and AIDS activist, and a women’s human rights defender. There is a deeply discriminatory, dangerous sentiment embedded in his statements. This sentiment relates to how women in general and women living with HIV and AIDS - and probably also lesbian women - are viewed.

The impact of those outrageous words is way beyond what many have stated. Most commentators have focused on the huge risk that could make it more likely that men will believe and act on the belief that this is an appropriate prevention ’technology’. It also has serious implications  in relation to ideas of women, our bodies, disease and cleanliness, and other powerful images that have the effect of reinforcing the ideas of us as vectors of disease, dirty and dangerous. The ideas in those words are dangerous because they reinforce these vector notions. It is even more dangerous because it is such a subtle message embedded in his apparent commitment and intent to practice ’safer sex’.

AWID: Are women’s rights activists opposed to a possible Jacob Zuma presidency?

DO: Yes. The women’s rights activists that we at the Forum for the Empowerment of Women [FEW] work with are opposed to a possible Jacob Zuma presidency. This includes individuals and organizations within the One In Nine Campaign, the 07-07-07 [Triple Seven] Campaign and the Joint Working Group as well as FEW members.
As women’s rights activists and feminists in particular, we are strongly opposed to this possibility because what we seek is accountable political leadership in general. We want a state that takes its obligations seriously and is accountable to ensure women’s rights are progressively attained. Specifically, in keeping with the constitution of South Africa, we expect leaders who recognize, respect, fulfill and protect the right of all women, including lesbian women and women living with HIV and AIDS, to dignity, autonomy, freedom and equality.

Mr Zuma does not understand this at all. He seems to have no consciousness of the violation that is patriarchy. In fact, as we have seen and continue to see, he is a powerful symbol of patriarchy. So as women’s rights activists, we are resisting having to live with this symbolism in our faces every day. We are resisting being participants in a frightening citizenship where a senior leader is a constant reminder of the impunity that prevails in our country and elsewhere in the world; a leader whose actions and statements have undermined the movement for justice for women, for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex people in this country.  Remember those classic statements he made during his trial for the rape of Kwezi, the young lesbian women human rights defender, feminist and activist, in 2006? This is why we say no.  We cannot affirm anyone who is essentially a misogynist and homophobic.

So yes, we are opposed to such a presidency and have an obligation as defenders of women’s human rights, activists and feminists, to oppose and resist this kind of leader. We are opposed to this kind of leadership both in terms of Mr Zuma himself and others in political leadership, especially within the ruling party, because we remember so well the misogynist actions and statements by his supporters during his rape trial in 2006.

AWID: While women’s rights activists may oppose a Zuma presidency, the ANC Women’s League has been known to support him. Which way do you think the women’s vote will swing when he runs for President?

DO: Strictly speaking, there is no women’s vote. There has been very little to no organizing on these lines in previous elections. If there is sufficient will and commitment on the part of women human rights defenders, women’s rights activists and feminist activists in the country, there may be a mobilization of ’the women’s vote’. This kind of a response will probably not fit with all of our ideological and strategic positions as feminists, but it will certainly be one strategic response that cannot be ignored.

At a Feminist Space held in November 2007, just after the ANC Women’s League took their shocking decision to support Mr Zuma as the ANC President, one idea mooted was to have a ’Rock the Vote’ mobilization. The idea was to mobilize such a vote and to broaden the base of those seeking just options in the elections. This idea was also discussed elsewhere amongst feminist groups and a process to set up a political party may be in the future.

There are of course many challenges to organizing and mobilizing around a women’s vote as a solution to the political crises. It can be interpreted, however, as a powerful act of defiance, an unprecedented  act of resistance in our post 1994 democracy.  This will be an issue for debate in the next few months as we organize a series of Round Table discussions at provincial level and as we get ready for a national feminist summit later in the year.

What we seem to be seeing in the emergence of a stronger, more powerful resistance and mobilization of feminist activism, is an emergence of multiple ideas for proactive feminist action as well as responses to the misogyny and impunity for those who violate women’s rights. We are expected to choose from the limited menu presented by political parties. However we also have the option of mobilizing and appropriating the women’s vote to serve a women’s rights agenda.

In any case, we will also see women who identify as feminist in or linked to the ruling party who intend to and do engage with the ANC, by for instance meeting with and trying to influence Mr Zuma himself. These and other interventions will be located on a continuum from left to right.

In the One In Nine Campaign and the Rose Has Thorns Camapign, we are clear. Our methods, strategies and tactics for change include direct action; articulating in a range of powerful ways - outside of the vote - what we hear women saying. We will continue to do this. Some of us may vote for a women’s party or put our votes in the hands of an other political party but our hope is in our movement building actions and not in the vote. Perhaps then our mobilizations are about what happens to women’s voices and how we use our collective power, rather than about the women’s vote.

AWID: Jacob Zuma cancelled an appearance at a charity event honouring former American boxer Mike Tyson who like Mr Zuma has faced rape charges. Unlike Mr Zuma however, Mr Tyson was convicted. Do you think Mr Zuma’s withdrawal from the event was in response to pressure by women’s groups?

DO: Yes, undoubtedly. We believe that the cancellation was a direct outcome of the organizing by women’s groups. It is a victory for organizing. The One In Nine Campaign, for example, mounted a short sharp Campaign called ’Birds of a Feather’, questioning and challenging the invitation itself and the invitation to these two particular men. The media coverage locally and internationally was incredible. We believe that the prospect of his appearing with Tyson in the light of Mr Zuma’s track record on women’s rights led to his advisors influencing a cancellation.

So again, here is an example of a lack of consciousness when a leader at this level, who surely must be aware of the shocking reality of violence against women, who has himself been in the spotlight with the rape trial, agrees to participate in a public event with another public figure involved in violence against women. Sadly also, the withdrawal came out of pressure and advice and not a genuine understanding and deep awareness that something is wrong. Mr Zuma’s withdrawal was not influenced by his conscience.

AWID: You have referred to some homophobic remarks by Mr Zuma.  He apologized  soon after for making the remarks, citing the guarantee of equality in the Constitution. Do you think the LGBTI community in South Africa should be confident that their rights will be protected or promoted under a Zuma presidency?

DO: Mr Zuma believed the remarks he made, so he is homophobic. If his apology was made on the basis of the South African constitutional guarantees, then it is not an apology for believing the substance of his remarks. So it seems we could have a homophobic misogynist president. As black lesbian women, we are being raped and murdered because of a cocktail of homophobia and misogyny. We are asking, and the answer is becoming apparent, ’to what extent do these perpetrators do what they do with a justification that comes from the voices of religious and traditional leaders, or from party political decision makers like Mr Zuma?’

As LGBTI people in this country, our rights are not protected under the present government. Why would they be protected under a Zuma Presidency? Already the response from our government is nothing less than a killing silence. Why would we hope for any better from a Zuma government?. Sadly, we have reason to believe that it would be worse under a Zuma presidency. And even more sadly we can see that voices in the ruling party are already mooting for some constitutional fiddling and ’fixing’ on other issues. So again is only a gain for now. We have to keep on struggling to maintain it. We must keep defending women and advancing women’s rights. As the well known quote goes,  freedom is always taken, never given. 

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